Tom Womack

What government policy would make you go out and spend more in February?<

I'll have a Green New Deal, please, with a side order of social justice. As well as investment in renewable technologies and green job creation, I'd like to see some legislation forcing businesses to take a bit of sodding responsibility. For example, legislation that fixes a link between the lowest and highest salaries paid by a company. Not a fixed ratio but a spectrum of ratios. The lower the lowest salary is as a percentage of the highest salary, the more taxes the company pays. (And by "salary" I mean all remuneration.)

But the real reason I don't spend more is that shopping is such a miserable experience. I believe that the government could change that if it wanted to, but the Chancellor alone would have no chance and it couldn't be done by February.

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I've wanted to tie the highest/lowest salary ratio for ages, but making it flexible by pinning the corporate tax rate to that ratio is _lovely_ .

Of course, what would actually happen would be outsourcing of all low-paid roles to service companies that would then outsource all their high-paid roles.

I suppose that it'd be possible to give the IR the right to determine the ratio they felt applied by fiat.

The other downside is that I can't see a way of making that rule apply to the government / civil service, who also are in need of such constraint.

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What possible business is it of the government's what a private company pays its employees, if their salaries are competitive enough hat they can still recruit at all levels they need to?

S.

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mobbsy.livejournal.com

Because it's the government that allows the company owners the privilege of running their company in the country, and determines the conditions under which they may do so.

From: (Anonymous)

But what justification is there for those conditions including what they can pay their executives?

Companies already pay corporation tax in return for that privilege. You need a very strong justification, like the actual physical wellbeing of employees, to justify interfering in how the company is run.

Minimum wage laws are dodgy but I can see a case can be made; maximum pay laws I can't see any way in which they are not totally unjustifiable. If a company pays over the odds, it will go bust: hos is that not enoguh control on maximum pay?

S.

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We've just spent a year and a half, and will probably spend another year and a half yet, discovering that 'it will go bust' is not enough restraint.

I wouldn't immediately dismiss wage inequality as necessarily irrelevant to actual physical wellbeing: we're status-conscious apes; stress hormones drive blood pressure, and heart attack and stroke are pretty blatant insults to physical wellbeing.

From: (Anonymous)

We've spent a year and a half discovering things about risk assessment and creditworthiness ratings. You'll have to explain to me how that has anything to do with capping pay (as opposed to reforming pay strategies to change the balance of risk/reward trade-off).

So. Basically, anybody who's not me being very successful makes my blood pressure higher; therefore we should outlaw, or at least cap, success?

S.

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Would you mind telling me who you are?

I am not suggesting capping success, but I think it's probably healthy to cap status, and I don't think it's possible to pay people amounts that differ by two orders of magnitude without it being an overwhelming driving factor to their status.

From: (Anonymous)

You thinking it's probably healthy (in a very very indirect way through blood pressure etc) is a fairly weak justification for a government sticking its nose into how a company spends its own money. As I initially said, such a ridiculous level of interference in what is basically a matter of contract between two parties into which the government should not stick its nose requires a very serious, immediate justification; something along the lines of a clear and present danger to the employee's safety is required. 'Other people might be cross that this person is being paid so much and thirty years later have heart attacks' is hardly a present danger: there's not even direct causality!)

What's more it seems to legitimise envy as a policy driver, as your effectively saying that people's health will suffer because they are envious of those with more money, and the solution to this is to stop people being paid a lot rather than to tell those who are envious to get over it!

S.

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I think we are arguing from very different axioms; I'm happy for a government to stick its nose into how people spend their own money - the entire thread is about what shape nose the government should use to convince people to spend more of their own money - and companies deserve much less protection from governments than humans do.

Why would you expect that telling people not to envy would work? Many organisations, including some with explicitly divine backing, have been attempting to discourage envy for at least three thousand years, and yet still we envy; envy's there all the way through the primates, it's something wired in hard enough that it's unrealistic to expect that telling people to get over it will work. At best you have just as much envy hidden by a thick layer of self-induced guilt.

From: (Anonymous)

There's a very big difference between a government making certain courses more advantageous than others to try to encourage people to take them, and punitive measures aimed at things it disapproves of -- and the tone of this suggestion was firmly in the 'punitive' category. How would you like it if the government capped the amount you could save per month so that you couldn't just increase your standing orders, and forced you to spend the excess?

Telling people not to murder or steal hasn't worked either, but that's no reason to stop trying.

S.

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Once again, please could you tell me who you are; there are at least two people I can think of who might sign their posts 'S'.

The government caps the amount that I can save in accounts paying interest tax-free at £3600 a year, which I think is absolutely analogous to capping the salary disparity that can be permitted without an increase in the rate of corporation tax; this troubles me little.

Edited Date: 2008-11-26 03:02 pm (UTC)

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2008-11-26 03:05 pm (UTC) - Expand

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mobbsy.livejournal.com

I believe tha the government's role is to protect and improve the quality of life for its citizens (as the institution constructed to implement the collective will of the nation).

One obvious way of improving quality of life is to improve prosperity, and I'd accept that a free market should provide that (subject to free availability of information), however there's plenty of evidence¹ that large differences in relative living standards degrades quality of life. In my opinion, a goal of government should be to attempt to improve quality of life by reducing inequality, while balancing that against also improving overall prosperity.

¹ A very quick google suggests I could throw a barrage of references here supporting this statement, but I won't waste time doing so unless you think it necessary.

(Another example where overall prosperity can conflict with quality of life is environmental impact of business, and that too needs regulation. I see that as a reasonably close parallel to this case.)

Consider the extreme case of average incomes rising, but the entire rise being given to the existing top 1% of the population. Prosperity has risen, but entirely to the degradation of the quality of life of the general population.

Actually, I think a hard cap on salary would be quite a bad idea; however the idea of a tax geared on the ratio of minimum to maximum salary seems a rather clever way to offer an incentive for companies to reduce inequality without the large market distortion of salary caps.

From: (Anonymous)

The government's role is to protect its citizens from real dangers, to enforce justice, and to get out of their way as much as possible otherwise.

Who is being protected from what real danger by this punitive tax? Vaguenesses about heart attacks thirty years down the line don't count, unless you can prove that said person wouldn't have had a heart attack but for the unbearable stress caused by their own envy -- both because they're vague, and because I don't see why we should protect people from their own envy.

If the average income rises but the rise is confined to the top 1% of the population (assuming this is all in real terms), nobody's quality of life has dropped unless they allow themselves to be eaten up with envy, and them I have no sympathy for.

S.

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I think that it has very little to do with envy, Stark.

On the one hand, I've seen what large-ish companies will do to the mass of lower-paid employees, by direct observation, and it is quite often deeply exploitative and morally repugnant. Not in a "not paying very much" kind of way, but in a "ruining peoples' lives while applying highly inappropriate pressures and threats to them so as to extract as much as possible out of them over the short term before chucking them away" kind of way. Having seen this directly in action, I disapprove.

And on the other hand, we observe a quite small group of very well rewarded executives, who have constructed a monopoly-like structure in which they each are responsible (via membership of each others' boards, and by being in control of the companies that are majority share-holders of each other) for controlling their own incomes, and see no reason to place any limit on them.

What we observe is policies that are entirely constructed around the desire to justify implausibly large (in the sense that I'd struggle to spend it if I had all day to do so) salaries and bonuses by excessively short term strategies, and by grinding "maximum efficiency" out of the mass of employees.

And, in practice, I observe quite a lot of those very highly paid executives exhibiting complete thoughtless incompetence that runs completely counter to the self-congratulatory assertions they make to justify the awards they make themselves.

If you haven't seen who bloody awful this is for those on the receiving end, you are somewhat fortunate and sheltered.

And, I think, it is inevitable that the greedy and utterly self-centred will gravitate to roles where they can be exploitative and selfish; and that one useful function of government is to try to make this more difficult for them.

From: (Anonymous)

If you want to improve conditions for the mass of lower-paid workers, then do that directly. Minimum wage laws, I already suggested I can see a case for. If you want to argue for changes to conditions on grounds of protecting employees' health, then do that too.

But I still don't see what any of that has to do with mandating some ratio between highest and lowest paid employees. If a company wants to hire someone who is the very best in their field, whether it be fund management, playing football, designing computer code, or directing films, and in order to do so is willing to outbid any competing firms and pay them a salary that is hundreds of times what the lowest-paid person in the company earns, that is entirely the company's decision about how to run its business and completely independent of the issue of how it treats those at the bottom end of the wage scale, so the government has no business setting punitive tax rates to discourage companies from competing to hire those at the top of their game.

And also, to forestall a possible objection, if the company wants to hire someone for some other asset they bring to the company not related to their talent, such as celebrity cache or publicity, again, that's entirely up to the company. It has nothing to do with how those at the bottom are treated -- and, again, if you think those at the bottom are treated in a way that injures them feel free to make the case that their conditions should be improved -- and is, again, entirely up to the company as to whether it thinks that extra factor is worth paying for.

If you want to help those on the receiving end, help those on the receiving end by agitating for their conditions to be improved. Don't interfere with how the company runs its business at the other end entirely.

S.

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You are presuming that the treatment of those at the bottom of the pile is in some way entirely independent of the self-treatment of those at the top of the pile. It doesn't work that way; apart from anything else, the metrics that those at the top of the pile use to justify their salaries and bonuses are typically "efficiency" rather than "well-being of the workforce". "Efficiency" translates to mis-treatment of the workforce in a way that has far greater scope than just how much they're paid.

And my point still rests that it is the greedy and entirely self-centred (and indeed high-functioning sociopathic) who self-select for roles where they can do this. [ Not that all people in such roles are, but that there is a selection pressure for it ].

Free markets are not the magic solution to everything. There's a very narrow range of situations where they are genuinely free and mostly work (where there is a reasonable balance of supply and demand, free flow of information, and sufficient independent operators), and even then you find pathological behaviours like confusopolies springing up.

In most situations what appears to be a free market, isn't. Notably, in the particular situation we're discussing here, there is a quite small closed group of people who define their own metrics for success which, it transpires, are fairly bogus (suspicion turns to proof when the world economy collapses as a consequence of their "best in field" management skills).

Companies that say "we've got to pay a million pounds a year to get the best person" (or indeed "six million pounds a year to get this popular presenter") are showing striking irrationality in allowing themselves to be manipulated by an artificially constructed restriction on supply, that it would be quite straightforward for them to side-step.

From: (Anonymous)

If you think 'efficiency' translates to real mistreatment of the workforce then we're back to what I wrote before: concentrate on dealing with the actual ill-treatment. Punitive taxation for the salary differential does not in itself improve the lot of the lowest paid one jot. Unless, I suppose, you propose to set the taxes at a level where it is cheaper for the company to raise the lower salaries to avoid the tax than it is to pay it, if they want to hire the best person. But that'd be a tricky level to achieve, and still would be underhand and not directly addressing the problem of treatment of those at the lower end of the salary scale.

Free markets aren't the magic solution to everything but in general the government needs a good excuse to start meddling in agreements freely arrived at between private parties. If I can convince a company that my services are worth £2.4 million per annum, I don't see why the government should get any say in that.

If it really would be quite straightforward for companies to sidestep this alleged artificially constructed restriction, why aren't more of them doing it, saving money, and outcompeting their rivals hollow?

S.

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In response to S:

1. I'm not talking about capping the highest salary in a company. I'm talking about linking it to the lowest salary in a company. Companies would still be free to pay whatever ludicrously high salaries they like to the people at the top; it's just that they would then be forced to raise the salaries of the people at the bottom too. So it's not a "maximum wage" at all.

2. I think

fivemack's point about heart attacks may well be valid, but it hadn't occurred to me when I made my original comment and it wasn't a reason for what I proposed at all. I think you've been focusing way too much on arguing about the heart attack thing (probably because it's the least-easily-proved bit of what

fivemack says) and ignoring his broader point that low salaries and income inequalities do have a broader impact on wellbring.

3. I don't agree with

fivemack that humans necessarily strive for status or that this status is necessarily related to earnings. I also don't believe that the stress you get from working in a company where pay is unequal is to do with "envy" as such; it's to do with regularly being shat on and being aware of the total unfairness of your situation.

4. I do believe that the income inequalities created by a company's decisions on salary are an externality which government has to clean up. Income inequalities have a direct and negative effect on various areas which government deals with: crime and health, for example. So I believe it's completely fair to force a company to pay for the consequences of its own decisions through tax.

5. I don't believe that forcing a chief executive to accept a maximum of, say, 200 times the salary of a company's lowest worker can be seen as "pain" or "punishment" for the chief executive.

6.

arnhem has made many of the other points I would otherwise have made myself.

7. I refuse to continue discussing this with you since I don't know who you are and I don't believe you are arguing in good faith. You have ignored

fivemack's two requests to say who you are.

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2008-11-27 11:38 am (UTC) - Expand

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arnhem.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-11-28 07:08 am (UTC) - Expand

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2008-11-28 09:33 am (UTC) - Expand

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If it really would be quite straightforward for companies to sidestep this alleged artificially constructed restriction, why aren't more of them doing it, saving money, and outcompeting their rivals hollow?

Because the people setting the company's strategy are not, ultimately, interested in the long term benefit to the company, but in maximising their own immediate reward through bonuses.

A little before the short-termism really starts to come back to haunt them, they move onto the next company. The particularly neat bit of the trick is how it looks like the company can't cope without them after they leave.

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From: (Anonymous) - Date: 2008-11-27 03:14 pm (UTC) - Expand

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I've wanted to tie the highest/lowest salary ratio for ages, but making it flexible by pinning the corporate tax rate to that ratio is _lovely_ .

Thank you!

Of course, what would actually happen would be outsourcing of all low-paid roles to service companies that would then outsource all their high-paid roles.

Yes, almost certainly, especially since a lot of companies are already outsourcing to avoid their existing obligations to employees. I personally think that you have to deal with outsourcing directly, through legislation, rather than trying to make it less attractive to employers by giving workers less rights.

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One possible strategy is to define the maximum and minimum salaries as being not only for the salaries within your own company, but within all the companies that you provide services (as distinct from goods or produce) to or purchase services from.

Still gets very difficult to pin down (is software "services" or "goods" - probably depends on how you sell it - to a single customer or in the mass market?) and might just turn into a further morass of complex legislation with lots of edge cases.

And I still don't see how to apply it to the civil service, schools, hospitals, universities ...

I still (pace S. above) like it; if only because it provides a nice incentive for the selfish buggers who strive for maximum pay at all costs to apply their selfishness for the benefit of others as well as themselves.

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I've been thinking about how to apply it to the public sector since you mentioned it in a previous comment because at first I couldn't see how it would work. Now I think perhaps it could be even easier than applying it to the private sector because it's basically government that sets public-sector salaries (although they have to be reasonably attractive when compared to equivalent private-sector salaries).

The difference would be that instead of pinning earnings ratios to corporation tax, you would use top-down policy to set those earnings ratios. The chief executive of Wherever Primary Care Trust would have his salary linked to the salary of the lowest-paid cleaner because that would be what they have to do to comply with the guidelines.

As for the other points you make in the comment above: yes, yes, and YES.

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I appreciate that you have a social conscience larger than mine, but I can't see how laudable government policies of that sort would have much effect on my personal habits of spending.

I might buy a few return tickets to Bristol over the course of a decade to watch the Severn Tidal Barrage being built, and I might find myself paying a bit more for electricity, but utility bills come out of a different part of my head than discretionary spending. I don't think I'd be more willing to buy fancy camera lenses, or to get trousers from John Lewis rather than Oxfam, if I knew that BHP Billiton was being charged a punitive rate of corporation tax because it had underpaid the people it had employed to clear up a spill of gold-mine debris in Papua New Guinea.

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